alain_bkr Reply To alain_bkr
Just some personal observations for civ2civ3 ruleset which i find very nice. Underpower / Overcost Great library : * it provides nearly no advantage to the player who build it. * +4 only in one city (as written in the README.civ2civ3 and in game help) is very small compared to 300 shield cost, Amortizing it needs nearly 75 turns
Have you decided that 1 shield == 1 gold == 1 bulb (== 1 food)? Well, even if you have, have you ever finished a game in less than 75 turns?
* if i am late in game (small number of cities compared to AI), building it will make my situation worse (i don't build it, i just pray for AI not doing it.)
Not so. The AIs have very few libraries (you can tell from Demographics->Literacy) while you (probably) have one in each city.
I definitely benefit from this Wonder being built, but I don't mind if an AI does it. If no AI is building it, I certainly will.
Newton : * it is mostly the same problem as Great Library * +6 for science in only one city is ridiculously small compared to the cost (count 100 turns x6 compared to 400 shield)
My exact same comments as above.
If no AI is building it, then I definitely will.
Michelangelo's Chapel * doubling the effect of cathedral is mostly useless, as generally building a cathedral is enough (except nations with a very large number of cities, which is not playable for a human) * maybe making +1 or +2 happy citizen with only temple would be good. (so only +0 or +1 under communism) * or +1 for temple and +1 for cathedral
What? I think you need to re-read the Help. After this wonder, each Cathedral gives you 7 (or 8) content people (6 under Communism). This way, you can postpone building Amphitheaters and Police Stations until your population gets to 17/18 or you start a campaign.
This is probably THE Wonder that I miss the most if I don't grab it.
Overpowered / Unexpensive Adam Smith Trade center * seems very overpowered * stock exchange would be built anyway . So it gives a bonus around +5 to +10 gold, each turn , for each city. For 15 cities, this give more than +75 gold each turn, * amortize is done in more or less 10 turns.
Agreed. It's actually 7 or 8 (depending on whether you got a river/lake aqueduct). The only reason that I don't build this, is when war and Communism came too early in the game (or an AI grabbed it first).
Eiffel Tower * pollution reduction in all cities is very powerful. That mostly solves the problem for many turns. * Compare with Hover Dam which cost twice, needs a river, and a building in each city. * maybe -5 pollution bonus in each city, or just concern the city where it is built would be good enough.
Yeah, this one is cool. With it, and Mass Transit you can postpone/avoid building a Recycling Center for all but the most intensive production cities.
However, these tickets are for bugs. cazfi's aim in life is to close all tickets. These comments of yours belong in the freeciv fora (that nobody reads or responds to).
alain_bkr Fist I wanted to add, that i did not say anything about most wonders which are really great, and seem well balanced.
Reply To chippo
Reply To alain_bkr
Just some personal observations for civ2civ3 ruleset which i find very nice. Underpower / Overcost Great library : * it provides nearly no advantage to the player who build it. * +4 only in one city (as written in the README.civ2civ3 and in game help) is very small compared to 300 shield cost, Amortizing it needs nearly 75 turns
Have you decided that 1 shield == 1 gold == 1 bulb (== 1 food)? Well, even if you have, have you ever finished a game in less than 75 turns?
I have not decided, it is in the code (where i begin to have a global vision, even if i am still lost for the details)
* if i am late in game (small number of cities compared to AI), building it will make my situation worse (i don't build it, i just pray for AI not doing it.)
Not so. The AIs have very few libraries (you can tell from Demographics->Literacy) while you (probably) have one in each city.
My point is that Great Library or Newton's College, are counter productive if you are late.
I have lost a game by building Great Library (i had hard time in the beginning with crazy neigbours, meanwhile one nation away from our fight easyly got 50 cities when i had less than 15)
Think a game against human , or in a not so far future when AI will be fixed and will build libraries, and universities (which are needed for space race)
Michelangelo's Chapel * doubling the effect of cathedral is mostly useless, as generally building a cathedral is enough (except nations with a very large number of cities, which is not playable for a human) * maybe making +1 or +2 happy citizen with only temple would be good. (so only +0 or +1 under communism) * or +1 for temple and +1 for cathedral
What? I think you need to re-read the Help. After this wonder, each Cathedral gives you 7 (or 8) content people (6 under Communism). This way, you can postpone building Amphitheaters and Police Stations until your population gets to 17/18 or you start a campaign. This is probably THE Wonder that I miss the most if I don't grab it.
I carefully read the help before writing this post, (in french, and doubled check in english, and even read the civ2civ3.rulesets and README :)
I mostly just build one Amphiteater in my biggests cities and this is enough, i have already won before needing another happyness building , and from time to time i add one cathedral somewhere. No need to have double effect.
Overpowered / Unexpensive Adam Smith Trade center * seems very overpowered * stock exchange would be built anyway . So it gives a bonus around +5 to +10 gold, each turn , for each city. For 15 cities, this give more than +75 gold each turn, * amortize is done in more or less 10 turns.
Agreed. It's actually 7 or 8 (depending on whether you got a river/lake aqueduct). The only reason that I don't build this, is when war and Communism came too early in the game (or an AI grabbed it first).
Ok to reduce Adam Smith power ? Something like no upkeep cost for trade centers :
This is easy to explain in documentation, and give a known bonus of -3 per city per turn , or following my arithmetic -3 x (10 ~ 15 cities) == -30 ~ -45 per turn == 20 to 15 turn to amortize.
Eiffel Tower * pollution reduction in all cities is very powerful. That mostly solves the problem for many turns. * Compare with Hover Dam which cost twice, needs a river, and a building in each city. * maybe -5 pollution bonus in each city, or just concern the city where it is built would be good enough.
Yeah, this one is cool. With it, and Mass Transit you can postpone/avoid building a Recycling Center for all but the most intensive production cities.
yes Eiffel tower is overpowerful and cheap (cf Hoover Dam)
(It has diplomatic effects)
Currently it is worth half of Mass transit (120$) in each city. So with 10 cities , it prevent spending 120/2 x 10 = 600 shields , and spare 2$ x 10 cities per turn of upkeep cost.
I think just reduce its effect only to the city where it built would be enough, maybe act as a solar plant ? (and simple, including help files and translations ...)
However, these tickets are for bugs. cazfi's aim in life is to close all tickets. These comments of yours belong in the freeciv fora (that nobody reads or responds to).
You force me to reveal my secret plan : make patches to rebalance those wonders :-) . But this may take some time.
Interesting topic. I guess it is ok to open tickets to complain about ruleset balance.
This civ2civ3 ruleset started in part as a way to introduce and test new freeciv features, and the effect of wonders have changed a lot from one version to another (my fault). I am not satisfied either with the current balance of some wonders, and there are changes that I keep testing in my own custom ruleset. Let me post here my suggested changes, and please let me know if you consider it an improvement or not:
--- Changed -=- Mostly equal
-=- "Pyramids" 200. Obsolete by Railroad (that increases even more the production): +1 Production per worked tile in the city (already producing Shields). Disables tile penalty under Despotism/Tribal governments. -=- "Colossus" 200. Obsolete by Automobile (Super Highways): +1 Trade per worked tile in the city (already producing Trade). -=- "Copernicus' Observatory" 300. Obsolete by Radio: +1 Science per worked tile in the city. -=- "Hanging Gardens" 200. Obsolete by Electricity (that increases Amphitheatre effect): +1 Content in all your cities. +2 Luxury in the city where it is built. -=- "Mausoleum of Mausolos" 200. Obsolete by Communism (Police Station): +1 Content in your cities with City Walls, and +1 extra content in your cities with Courthouse. Your cities are immune to incite actions. -=- "Temple of Artemis" 200. Requires Temple. Obsolete by Theology (that increases Cathedral effect): +2 Content in your cities with Temple. -=- "Michelangelo's Chapel" 400. Requires Cathedral: +3 Content in your cities with Cathedral. --- "J.S. Bach's Cathedral" 300: +1 Luxury in all your cities. +4 Luxury in the city where it is built. --- "Shakespeare's Theatre" 400. Requires Amphitheatre: +2 Luxury in your cities with Amphitheatre, +6 Luxury where it is built. --- "Cure For Cancer" 600. Requires Hospital: +2 Luxury in all your cities with Hospital. -10% chance of illness. --- "A.Smith's Trading Co" 400. Requires Stock Exchange: +2 Gold in your cities with Stock Exchange. +1 trade route in the city where it is built. --- "Darwin's Voyage" 400: +1 Science in all your cities. --- "Great Library" 300. Requires Library. Obsolete by Computers (Research Lab): +1 Science in your cities with Library. +4 Science where it is built. --- "Isaac Newton's College" 400. Requires University: +2 Science in your cities with University. +6 Science where it is built. --- "Internet" 600. Requires Research Lab: +3 Science in your cities with Research Lab. Reveals all cities in the map for the owner. -=- "Lighthouse" 200. Requires adjacent sea. Obsolete by Engineering (Destroyer): +1 Move, and built veteran, for Galley and Sea units. -=- "Magellan's Expedition" 400. Requires adjacent sea. Obsolete by Nuclear Power (that increases even more the movement of Sea units): +1 Move, and +50% chance of veteran after a battle, for Sea units (No Galleys). --- "Sun Tzu's War Academy" 300. Obsolete by Mobile Warfare (Barracks III): +1 Veteran level for Land (and Big Land) units built in your cities (cumulative to Barracks only in the continent where it is built). --- "Statue of Zeus" 200. Obsolete by Conscription (that enables wonder with similar effect): +1 Unit per city free of unhappiness due to military activity, +2 free Shields (or Gold) per city for upkeep of units. --- "King Richard's Crusade" 300. Obsolete by Flight: +50% chance of veteran after a battle, for Land (and Big Land) units. Increases by 24 the Empire Size base limit (prevents 1 or 2 unhappy citizens per city). -=- "Women's Suffrage" 600: +1 Unit per city free of unhappiness due to military activity (cumulative to Police Stations). Under Democracy it also halves the unhappiness caused by military activity. -=- "Marco Polo's Embassy" 200. Obsolete by The Corporation: Embassy with all players (Tech cost is reduced depending on the number of players which already know the tech). +1 trade route where it is built. --- "Great Wall" 300. Obsolete by Machine Tools (Artillery): +50% Defense bonus against Land (and Big Land) units in your cities (cumulative to City Walls only in the continent where it is built), and no loss of population due to attacks. -=- "Leonardo's Workshop" 400. Obsolete by Combustion: Upgrades one obsolete unit per game turn. --- "Eiffel Tower" 600: Enables appearance of Partisans in your cities, no matter your government, and -25% pollution caused by population. -=- "Statue of Liberty" 400: Any government available. No Anarchy periods when government changes. Disables Has Senate effect. --- "Hoover Dam" 600. Requires Hydro Plant (and adjacent River): Gives to every Hydro Plant the same effect as Solar Plants (-25% pollution caused by production). Doubles the bonus to production of a Hydro Plant in the city. -=- (#)"Manhattan Project" 600. Enables Nuclear units for every nation. -=- (#)"Apollo Program" 600. Enables space race for every nation. Makes entire map permanently visible for the owner. -=- (#)"United Nations" 600: Embassy with all players for every nation. Revolution when unhappy effect for every nation. +1 Veteran level for Diplomat and Spy built in the city. Special "Cold War" effect: if Manhattan Project and United Nations were built, every nation with nuclear power receives the "Has Senate" effect, until the Apollo Program is finished.
I was not convinced by the global effect of Great library and Newton, either. I agree it is not good that they always favour the lead player (and are not useful to catch up), and it seems we share the same idea to change their effect to extra science per Library/University. This way, the number of turns needed to amortize them would be in the same range than the rest of wonders (proportional to the number of cities in some cases, or to the size of the city in other cases).
I did not change Michelangelo's Chapel in my list, that I consider reasonably worthwile. But I reduced the effect of other wonders related to happiness that gave extra luxury like "J.S. Bach's Cathedral". Once the cities have all buildings related to gold/luxury, the +2 extra luxury become +6 (3 happy per city, that could neutralize 3 military units outside national borders), and I found it a bit overpowered, specially for celebrating governments.
I did not expect Eiffel Tower to be considered overpowered. The pollution caused by population (-25% with Eiffel Tower) use to be much lower than the pollution caused by production (-25% with Hoover Dam + Hydro Plant). But maybe I underestimate it, and now I think my suggested version might be a bit too powerful. I increased the bonus from Hoover Dam in my version, too.
Something I planned to change in this ruleset is the effect of Mass Transit, so it completely eliminates the pollution caused by the population (same as classic freeciv iirc). Maybe that would make current Eiffel's effect less important.
I find it rather interesting that the 3 of us (writing in this ticket) have such different views about what's over-powered or otherwise.
I disagree with both of you, on just about everything. If it was up to me, I wouldn't change any of the Wonder's rewards, just some of their costs. The changes I would make would be:
Lighthouse - 300 Marco Polo's - 300 Eiffel Tower - 400 Shakespeare's Theater - 400 (plus a pre-req of Sewers in the City) Michelangelo's Chapel - 600 J.S. Bach's Cathedral - 600 (plus a pre-req of a Cathedral in the City) Adam Smith's something - 600
But it so depends on the size of the game as to the value of the rewards. Consider Marco Polo's: in a 5 player game it is certainly less worthful/powerful than in a 30 player game.
I'm unsure about the cost/value of the Statue of Liberty. While I'm testing/comparing governments it's invaluable, but if just fighting for a victory - and I know my government progression, is it worth the 3-4 turns of Anarchy? The AI love is worthless - by this stage of the game, mostly, the whole world is divided into 2-4 alliances/hatreds which aren't going to change until the start of the space race.
But I really disagree with both of you about Great Library / Newton's. The don't help the leading player - they help the human player. In maps I play, the leading AI will have about 100 cities (to my 10-30), but he'll have maybe 5 Libraries and 2 Universities. I (as a human) will have 10-30 Libraries and Universities. The AIs do science by smallpox, no. of cities, scientists. Human's do it with city improvements.
When Alain lost this game by completing a Wonder - that would make sense if it was Darwin's. That's how AIs do science. I'm sure that the reason you lost was NOT because you completed GL/N, but something else.
Reply To chippo
I find it rather interesting that the 3 of us (writing in this ticket) have such different views about what's over-powered or otherwise.
It uses to be hard to find 2 people who share the same opinion about the desired balance of any aspect of a ruleset. If it happens that 2 people here agree on certain change, and no one seems to disagree, I'd consider it good enough to make the patch, but that surely will not happen on something as broad and varied as wonder effects.
Anyway, I think this kind of ticket is useful to see how other people evaluate the balance of the ruleset. Let me explain my opinion too.
If it was up to me, I wouldn't change any of the Wonder's rewards, just some of their costs.
I think the cost of the wonder is (and should be) more related to the point of the tech tree where it appears, than to the balance of the effect. If the effect is overpowered, increasing the cost from 300 to 600 will require 2x time to amortize the cost, but after that, the effect will continue being overpowered. Of course, you can use the cost and the obsolescence to micro-balance one wonder compared to another available in the same age, but I personally prefer to keep the costs equal to civ2 if possible (as they are right now), because the time when they appear in the tech tree was practically unchanged.
Shakespeare's Theater - 400 (plus a pre-req of Sewers in the City)
The pre-req of Sewers would make sense (being both available with the same tech), but I personally would like to see Shakespeare's Theater someway related to the effect of Amphitheater.
J.S. Bach's Cathedral - 600 (plus a pre-req of a Cathedral in the City)
The pre-req of a Cathedral in the city makes more sense to me for Michelangelo's Chapel, that is attached to an existing "cathedral" in real world, and its effect is related to the improvement of Cathedrals. While J.S. Bach's Cathedral is supposed to be a Cathedral itself, but the effect is related to Bach music, not really to Cathedrals.
The rule for pre-requisites is supposed to be: when a wonder has a pre-requisite, it is because the effect of the wonder is linked to the presence of the building. But it is open to suggestions too. Sometimes I think it'd be simpler to remove all pre-requisites.
But it so depends on the size of the game as to the value of the rewards. Consider Marco Polo's: in a 5 player game it is certainly less worthful/powerful than in a 30 player game.
Marco Polo is in my opinion the wonder with most chances to be overpowered, but I like that it mostly helps to players who lag behind, as it does the Great Library in classic rules.
If you think about it, the power of Marco Polo is not dependant on the number of players. The cost of technologies is reduced to a fraction (or %), equal to the fraction of players that knows the tech. There is no reference to the absolute number of players. If 50% of the players know a tech, then the cost is reduced by 50%. In other words, your bulbs invested in that tech are doubled (you need 1000 instead of 2000). I like to evaluate it this way: for each 100 bulbs that you invest in that tech, Marco Polo wonder gives you another 100. And imo it becomes overpowered pretty soon.
It is the use of diplomats to establish embassies that is highly dependant on the number of players (with more players you require more diplomats to get the same effect), but I think this is not a good reference to evaluate Marco Polo power.
I'm unsure about the cost/value of the Statue of Liberty. While I'm testing/comparing governments it's invaluable, but if just fighting for a victory - and I know my government progression, is it worth the 3-4 turns of Anarchy? The AI love is worthless - by this stage of the game, mostly, the whole world is divided into 2-4 alliances/hatreds which aren't going to change until the start of the space race.
I agree. I'd vote to removed the AI love effect from wonders, and keep it for cheating difficulty as a way to reduce the wars among AIs (already used this way in this ruleset).
But I really disagree with both of you about Great Library / Newton's. The don't help the leading player - they help the human player. In maps I play, the leading AI will have about 100 cities (to my 10-30), but he'll have maybe 5 Libraries and 2 Universities. I (as a human) will have 10-30 Libraries and Universities. The AIs do science by smallpox, no. of cities, scientists. Human's do it with city improvements.
You are right that the effect of those wonders is some kind of counter against smallpox. I kept that global effect in the ruleset because I was afraid that my reduction to the effect of libraries/universites would encourage smallpox, but I think it is no longer needed to discourage smallpox in this ruleset.
I personally do not like wonders that are so different when you play against the AI, or against humans. The ruleset is supposed to be balanced for a multi-human game, and I think the current effect makes those wonders a kind of a trap for backward players.
alain_bkr Reply To bard
Let me post here my suggested changes, and please let me know if you consider it an improvement or not: --- Changed -=- Mostly equal
I really like your rebalanced wonders.
Only very tiny remarks :
I don't understand what you say about smallpox for AI research (goo.translate gives me only one desease), but i have seen games where AI have near 70% literacy , and i believe AI will improve sooner or later and build libraries and universities which is more efficient on the long term (100+turns).
I'm glad you like it. I'm still testing them in my games, and making some adjustments. In the future, I plan to make some patches to introduce some of these changes if we all agree is an improvement, but surely not until v3.1. I suppose it is better to keep gameplay for 3.0 stable while people test it as the new default rules.
In the meanwhile, I'll keep checking this topic for suggestions.
Reply To alain_bkr
* Marco Polo's embassy, becomes useless once your are leading in tech, so it is self-balancing :-) and i read somewhere in hrm some ideas of reducing its effects to know nations or something
I have made a patch to use this feature (reducing its effects to know nations) and I was going to open a ticket this week to see if it could be included in 3.0, because it always bothered me that Marco Polo gives automatic contact with nations from isolated continents, and I think it would be good for balance too.
It could be double-sided and also gives an embassy to other nation with us (=> both), that would give a counterpart and smooth the tech gap for eveyone.
I added this doubled-side embassies to United Nations in my suggested list, but I like the idea to try something similar with Marco Polo, I'll test it.
Only very tiny remarks : * i find the 3 first expensive as they concern only one city, (maybe decrease cost to 150 ?), but i never build them, AI always got them very long before i consider building a wonder, so i don't care :-)
I tried to give those wonders some effect that makes them worth early in game, already in current version:
- Pyramids: I think it is one of the most powerful. If built in the right city (with many production tiles and food to grow), it can be amortized in 20-40 turns, and after that, you get a very productive city to build more wonders. If you build it early, it disables the tile penalty from Despotism/Tribal governments in all your cities, something that would allow to aim for Republic without going through Monarchy, for example.
- Hanging Gardens: since it gives extra luxury in the city, it can be used to celebrate, that also prevents the penalty from Despotism/Tribal, even if only in one city.
- Colossus: since the Palace gives a +75% (or 50%) gold in your capital city under Despotism (or Monarchy), you might get an important boost to both gold and science when built early in the capital.
- Copernicus' Observatory: I think this one requires a minor fix. It is supposed to give +1 science per citizen (worked tile), but I forgot to give also +1 science per Scientist specialist. I think this addition would make it a bit more valuable early in game.
- I agree Mausoleum of Mausolos is not that useful when built early. I delayed the obsolescence in my suggested list, to make it a good alternative to Temple of Artemis (Oracle), that gives some use to walls (+1 Content) even if you are not attacked.
I don't understand what you say about smallpox for AI research (goo.translate gives me only one desease), but i have seen games where AI have near 70% literacy , and i believe AI will improve sooner or later and build libraries and universities which is more efficient on the long term (100+turns).
In civilization, it is often called "smallpox" when a player build many cities close to each other, minimizing the city improvements, relying on citizen production (specialists, or wonders that gives bonuses per city), useful early in game to focus on unit production for war. While it is called "largepox" when you create distant cities with many buildings that maximizes the utilization of land tiles as cities grow.
Freeciv increases the effect of libraries/universities a lot compared to civ2 or civ3 official games. In civ2 smallpox was more powerful than largepox, and I was afraid that reducing the output from science buildings would make it worse, that is why I kept this increased science output through global effect of wonders. But now I'm confident it is not needed in civ2civ3.
I'm testing some adjustments to my previous list of suggested wonder effects, that tries to reward players that specialize their cities in either production or economy/science, instead of building every improvement in every city. (I always tried that this ruleset encourages an strategy in the middle between smallpox and largepox).
My changes affect mainly the wonders pointed by alain_bkr, so I guess we share some ideas about which wonders need some readjustment. If I had to change only one of them for v3.0, it would be A.Smith's Trading Co, that I also find too easy to amortize in the current version.
--- "J.S. Bach's Cathedral" 400:
+1 Content in all your cities (+2 Content in your cities of the same continent where it is built).
It'd make it more similar to civ2 (+2 Content in your cities of the same continent where it is built), and I like if it gives extra content (useful for fundamentalism government available with the same tech), better than extra luxuries (that requires economic buildings like banks to maximize it).
--- "Shakespeare's Theatre" 300:
+1 Luxury in all your cities, +4 Luxury in the city where it is built. Effect is doubled in cities with Amphitheatre if there is no Stock Exchange.
The effect acts as an extra Entertainment in the city, and it would reward large cities with Amphitheatres more focused on production/science than gold.
--- "Great Library" 300. Requires Library. Obsolete by Computers (Research Lab):
+1 Science in your cities with Library. +4 Science in the city where it is built.
--- "Isaac Newton's College" 400. Requires University:
+1 Science in your cities with University. +4 Science in the city where it is built. Effect is doubled in cities larger than size 8 if there is no Factory.
The effect acts as an extra Scientist in the city, and it would reward large cities with University more focused on science/gold than production.
--- "Darwin's Voyage" 400:
+1 Science in all your cities. Scientist specialists produce +1 Science.
I think the boost to specialists output could be made local for the player, instead of global for every player, since it uses to help human more than AI anyway, but I'm still in doubt.
--- "A.Smith's Trading Co" 400:
+1 Gold in all your cities. Taxman specialists produce +1 Gold. +1 trade route in the city where it is built.
I liked your suggestion to prevent the upkeep costs of economic buildings (same as civ3), but it is not possible to implement it in freeciv, that I know. This suggestion would give 1 coin to every city, 2 coins with Market+Bank, and 3 coins with Stock+Highways.
--- "Internet" 600:
+3 Free bulbs for technology upkeep in each of your cities. Reveals all cities in the map for the owner.
At the same time, I'd change effect of Research Lab to double the effect of both Library and University (like Power plants do with Factory/Mfg Plant, and Superhighways with Stock Exchange), in order to compensate the old effect of Internet.
alain_bkr What about a side effect of internet : tech leakage.
Like if all nation had embassy with you
It would help retarded nation to catch up in tech.
I also like the idea of some effect of Internet that would allow to catch up in tech.
I have tested in my games to give to the United Nations the effect you suggest for Internet: "embassies with every player" for everyone, and I liked how it worked as a catch up for retarded nations. It would be a good alternative for Internet too.
But I personally no longer like the idea of linking the tech leakage to the embassies, and I don't use it in my games. I hope it was possible to link it just to nations being in contact.
However, I think the main game mechanic to catch up is (and it should be) to use diplomats/spies to steal techs, and I'm thinking that Internet could be used to increase the chances of such actions.
Just some personal observations for civ2civ3 ruleset which i find very nice.
Underpower / Overcost
Great library :
Newton :
Michelangelo's Chapel
Overpowered / Unexpensive
Adam Smith Trade center
Eiffel Tower